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What does this even mean?
“Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
“Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man’s mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.
However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Yes. I mean I’m a man and I had no trouble understanding the post but for some reason it is very hard for some people
Maybe some people don’t live around bad role models.
You’re on the internet talking about a thread from xitter. Congrats for living in a cave with only good role models, but I think you should be able to see over the fence a little.
That made no sense whatsoever. You sound exactly like somebody from xitter.
You really couldn’t figure out what they meant or are you being snarky?
IDK about ‘snarky’ but I’ve got $5 on ‘feigning incomprehension’
telling someone they should find bad role models isn’t nice imo
Not go out and find them, but be able to understand that it’s pretty common.
Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.
I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.
That’s why I said “sometimes” and not, “every child, everywhere, all the time.”
Your 23 year old may be really immature still, some kids are not. Depends on the kiddo. However, I don’t think forgiving abusive parents is a lesson that should be taught. You can hold someone accountable without hating the rest of the world. I can not forgive an abusive parent and still see the good side of things without being a doormat.
I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
Not inherent, no, but culturally ingrained crappy behaviours? Sure.
Absolutely, but those shouldn’t be overlooked by anyone, and forgiven only once someone has made the effort to unlearn that shit.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness, as they’ve grown up a generation later than the previous main female figure in their lives?
Scoffing when asked to change ones behaviour for the better is not a gendered charachter fault. No-one likes being informed that something they’ve been doing, and consider normal, is bad, actually.
And that’s not a reason not to improve. The opposite. It’s a reason to embrace self-improvement, and to learn to do ones best to skip the denial phase.
Something I think most people, of both genders, can be very good at if they want to be.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness
I’m not sure how profound it’s “supposed” to be, but I think that’s basically the message, that’s what I took from it at least.
THERE IT IS
RIGHT OVER HERE OFFICER!
You see, it’s simple: men bad
It’s worse than that. It’s a sexist assertion that all men model the worst of our gender while all women model the best of theirs, which aggrivatingly dismisses feminist progressive men and excusing sexist regressive women.
DomeWife is not the one teaching DomeBaby about bodily autonomy or feminism, though she does have plenty of examples of women being sexist to our manly kith and kin.
this comment is difficult to read because I can’t figure out if you’re sarcastic or not, it would make sense either way and I have no way of knowing
That’s the beauty of it innit
Incel alert
Not just that, they are worse than women in every way. (I want equality btw).
Why in earth would I compare the woman I’m blasting with my mother?! That’s kinda weird.
⚠️FREUD ALERT FREUD ALERT⚠️
I go in with a lot of fervour myself, but “blasting”?
Your mother is kind of hot, so…
I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says “not all men but it’s ALWAYS a man” As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.
The down votes say it all. This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
Exactly. You have one side that doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues and demonizes them for it and the other side that also doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues but gives the occasional lip service or pretends to listen on occasion.
Neither is a good choice, but one is not openly hostile, and that makes it easy to fall that way.
And it’s worse because nonone is asking for a lot. Listening to men won’t set us back fifty years. It would actually bring more men into the leftist fold. But of course that is not what it’s about to them.
I went to college in the 80’s. I had a history teacher explain to me how the Civil War and Jim Crow were not about gaining economic advantage from subjugation of free labor, but rather white men keeping white women in their place by demonizing black men.
I needed an A, and I got one. I told her what she wanted to hear. Not proud of that, but not ashamed either.
That crap was allowed to fester because it was only a few crazy people. Then it grew enough to spawn the likes of Trump.
I recommend this excellent book, “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin Du Mez who brings receipts for the argument that disaffected people were looking for a Trump to show up. (She is an evangelical who is not a fan of autocracy)
All this to say, you are correct.
Yeah, modern narratives basically teach men to hate themselves. I drank the Kool aid until my early 20s until I dated a narcissists and came to the realization that abusive pieces of shit come in all genders. And then when I need to turn to look for a role model there is nothing out there except right wing douche bags. Then we worry why young men gravitate towards the alt right.
think about how it must have felt for all those mothers who had to raise a daughter in an environment that has always been so hateful towards women…
“Fuck you, they had it worse” isn’t really helpful either.
I think the point is to expand the empathy bubble.
It’s hard to have empathy when none is given.
Sometimes it do be hard, yeah. But often most things worth doing are hard in some way.
Why is that my son’s fault?
i never said it was, and I’m sure your son will be fine.
Yes, you did. In approximately the same way that All Lives Matter was just a dog-whistley way of saying “No they don’t” to Black Lives Matter.
When someone says I suffer from THING, responding with other people suffer too as your primary message is always a dismissal of the person’s suffering.
If you want to avoid the inferred message, include an affirmative message of acknowledgement, like “nobody should suffer like that.”
If we’re going to compare this to BLM then you said something amongst the lines of “White people have to grow up in a world where everyone hates them.” and I responded “Actually, black people have had it worse.”
If you are a cis white straight man, you are not oppressed. Stop trying to be.
I’ve had the cops called on me for watching my nephew at the park.
Go fuck yourself you fucking fuck.
so did they arrest you?
If you are a cis white straight man, you are not oppressed. Stop trying to be.
The entire model you are operating on has it’s roots in Marxist class conflict. Broadly the problem with that is that it was created in terms of economic class, and economic class is where it works best (or possibly at all). It can be shoehorned into other dynamics, but it only really works to the degree that that dynamic is also a proxy for economic class.
For example, it works passably well for race in the US because broadly speaking race is a decent proxy for economic class in 21st century America, though less of one than it used to be. It’s a bad fit for sex or gender precisely because those things do not function as a proxy for economic class at all.
the hell are you on about? this discussion was about men claiming everybody hates them, even though they’re privileged on most aspects of life. why do you start rambling about the working class?
The plane rules of rhetoric do not change simply because a thing is not oppression. I’m just a rando adding comment to down vote to express what I think was done wrong.
Thosen two quotes are an excellent example of my principle, actually. The second one when given as a response to the first carries all the factionalist racism and denial of your last line.
so I’m racist now for saying
white men are notnot all white men are oppressed? alright then sure bud
Yeah you are. Real nice that you expect us to raise a generation of boys to have to see themselves as monsters.
It’s like you’re here just to sully the debate with bad faith responses.
No one is asking them to see themselves as monsters? You’re creating a problem where there isn’t one.
What is a child supposed to pull from the bear vs man type of discussions?
to be better than a bear probably?
No one is telling boys that they are monsters.
It is helpful that they know there are humans in the world who behave like monsters, and that some of them are men who target people who they perceive to be weaker than themselves.
So children, women, other men who are either physically smaller or in a lower position of power. That’s what they need to know. So they can protect themselves, and help stop others from becoming someone else’s monster if the opportunity arises.
Doing things like speaking out against sexual harassment, and calling out bullying behavior, this is everyone’s responsibility btw. Not just men’s and boys, but this is what needs to be taught so world can suck less.
But we only ever talk about boys being the problem. Half the comments here are about how dangerous men are.
Women are the most hated people the world over. No advantages, only downsides. Any man to ever walk the earth can never experience the equivalent horrors of being despised as much as a woman.
Edit: /s. Do people seriously think this way?
You’re massively ignorant of just how little the world cares about the suffering of males. The same amount of harm to a female will, ten out of ten times, generate more sympathy and outrage than that same harm to a male.
When Boko Haram attacked hundreds of thousands of children, the only reports that generated any outrage were the ones talking only about girls being kidnapped, even though they murdered all the boys. Hell, when the victims were all male, the sex wasn’t even stated in the articles, it’s just “students” etc. But every single time girls were victimized, you’d better believe “girls” or “schoolgirls” was explicitly used. The reason is simple–people in general actually give a shit about girls.
The empathy gap between the sexes is very real, and your comment is a perfect example of it.
I really should’ve used /s . I thought the hyperbole would make it obvious, but it’s a little sad we live in the world where people might actually truly believe it.
Poe’s law, sorry for going off on you.
The suicide rate among men, including boys is going up. Will that make you feel better?
I can’t tell if this is an example of Poe’s law or why it’s a thing.
It was supposed to be hyperbolic and sarcastic, but it looks like such beliefs can actually be held.
Sarcasm and hyperbole are two of my favorite things, but Poe’s ls is a real thing.
Without a clear indicator of intent, it’s impossible to distinguish snark from extremism
Damn, I can’t tell if this is honest or some really deep cutting sarcasm/satire.
Edit: the autism got me again
You could not have proven their point more strongly if you tried.
Fact is, even if it was “always a man”, the fact of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of men don’t do it, making the assumptions about men not only immoral, but inaccurate.
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.
I’m a man, I’m not a rapist. In fact I’m the survivor of childhood sexual abuse. It’s absurdly offensive to me to be called the thing I hate most, an rapist. And I hate that I’m fair game at being called that, simply because I was born the “bad gender”.
The thing is I like being a man, I’m proud to be a man, I’m happy with my life. but even saying that makes people look at you weird. I have no idea why.
another thing that I really dislike is that men are looked at weird when they say they like children, often assuming in a sexual way
our whole species is genetically built to find children cute, we literally have no other choice
My daughter is 13 now and I get weird looks when I hold her hand on hug her in public. She’s a huge daddy’s girl so she’s very affectionate, and I hate the weird looks old ladies give me
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.
Often including literally the same data from the same source, just broken down by gender instead of race. You see UCR crime stats are perfectly reasonable for drawing population level conclusions from when talking about sex, but are deeply flawed to the point of uselessness when talking about race.
But men and black folks share a lot when it comes to the criminal justice system. For example, if I asked you for some data to use as a demonstration that the criminal justice system is unfairly biased against black folks (or for white folks) you could name off a litany of statistics. Essentially every one of those examples also has a gender gap, and it’s against men. For many of them the gender gap is larger than the racial one.
Your point is all over the place. Men aren’t being targeted with criticism simply for existing. That’s a disingenuous framing of the issue. Are we supposed to feel sympathetic to your plight because you saw a picture online of something you disagreed with?
Some men deserve criticism for being chronically emotionally, psychologically, and socially underdeveloped. Incels are people that exist as well. It’s 2024. If it’s truly “not all men” then you don’t need to take everything online at face value if you aren’t one of the toxic men that this post is addressing.
See it’s funny how it’s always men who take criticism for being immature and never ever women. My ex was ridiculously stunted. She was a capricious, gas lighting brat. The ratio of immature men to women out there is pretty even, yet it’s a running joke that men are the immature ones. My ex couldn’t even cook herself lunch, hold a job, and expected me to just hand her money like I’m her dad. Plenty of women out there like that too, just as many as there are man boys out there who think their wives are their mom. But it’s only ever a thing to go after the men on this issue
If it’s truly “not all men” then you don’t need to take everything online at face value if you aren’t one of the toxic men that this post is addressing.
Using the word men to criticise only the toxic ones and telling all the ones that aren’t toxic to just not feel addressed is pretty weird to me.
Especially when if one were to criticize women this same logic very definitely would not be applied.
I once read a comment that said something like, “if your post would be considered racist if you wrote ‘black men’ instead of just ‘men’, then it’s very likely misandrist.”
Good words to live by if you aren’t an asshole.
Husband’s bad
Men stupid
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they’re subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It’s like those magic eye pictures.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was. Posts like this bring it right out. I can’t believe how many upvotes some of these red-pill-ass comments have. It’s really discouraging to see and often makes me too nervous to speak up on women’s issues here on Lemmy, lest I be absolutely brigaded.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Half the comments here are shitting on men.
The difference is that shitting on men is acceptable. At worst it’s venting a bit. And collectively attacking men is fine.
Not like saying something negative about a woman, in which case you have to be very absolutely clear that you are only talking about that one woman in that one scenario and that it is in no way representative of any other scenario or woman, and even then you’ll be accused of misogyny.
But then this notion that it’s OK to talk shit about men but women are either positive or victims at worst shows in a lot of feminist lingo.
For example, what do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to women and charges a higher price in doing so and women buy it? The pink tax. What do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to men and charges a higher price in doing so and men buy it? Male fragility.
Goodness gracious, it’s almost like you’re commenting on the thread almost a day later and maybe the comments are a bit different now, as opposed to earlier.
Just saying what I am saying not my fault posts take forever for anything new to come up to my feed.
No, but deciding to comment is a choice you made, not something out of your control like something appearing in your feed.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Absolute mood.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
It’s a lot like Reddit was back in the old days in that way :/
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
I agree there is sexism, but were you on Reddit for those first few years? This place is a Disney movie compared to how Reddit used to be.
I actually mentioned that in a comment above. Reddit used to be just as bad, if not worse indeed, but that doesn’t excuse Lemmy by any means. I do hope that it’s a good indicator that Lemmy will get better with time, though.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was
Surprised if true
deleted by creator
It’s insane. They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape when women don’t immediately trust them to go into dark alleys with them and when a woman just says explicitly, off the top, what she wants and it doesn’t line up with their desires they go feral telling her unreasonable she’s being.
They talk such big shit about being generalized and then in turn refuse to accept a woman’s individual choices and preferences. They don’t even stop to understand that women cannot read minds to know who’s safe or not, and frankly just in that they kinda show exactly why they might be having trouble.
—
“I’d just like some basic emotional maturity.”
“Ok so this one time a woman was mean to me so real quick I’m gunna weaponize that and tell you that it gives me permission to be a big fucking baby.”
They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape
Yet you’re the one whining 🤔
“No you”
Just stop.
I thought the funniest part about the man vs bear stuff was women saying how they’d pick the bear because “at least it was honest about wanting to kill me” lmao
Had to scroll waaay too far to find something sane.
Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There’s been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what’s acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn’t really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It’s almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they’ll expect you to pay for the date.
There’s also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I’ve seen women push their husband into an “ethically polyamaorous” relationship that always is extremely one sided. I’ve also seen a lot of women with an “I can do better” mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything. I’m just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
Most of the dudes I know who aren’t currently married just don’t expect to have a relationship at all at this point in their lives (mostly middle age IT guys). The consensus is online dating isn’t worth it to even bother with and it’s hard AF to meet anyone in the real world so they focus on their hobbies and socialize with their bros instead. There’s no animosity towards women and there are a few women that come out with us when we go to the bar but nobody is pursuing romance.
I mean, as a woman in my 30s, same. I’m not worried about it or anything, like if I meet someone that’s great, but why stress over it? Dating is supposed to be fun. If you’re stressing out, take a break. There’s no rush. I say that knowing I only have so much time left to have kids, but again, stressing over it doesn’t help
It sounds like we’re on the same page.
My friends have better luck, but it’s a constant grind. Also, as far as I can tell, a guy’s chance of getting into a relationship is basically a thin proxy for how attractive he is. Meanwhile for women the chances seem to be proxy for a combination of genuine kindness and realistic expectations. Any women with remotely realistic expectations is off the market in six weeks flat.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything.
You obviously aren’t, but it speaks volumes all on its own that you felt there was a need to state that, only bolstering your other points about this one-sidedness.
Idk I basically stopped talking about this in mixed gender company in real life. My guy friends get it, my SO gets it, and a few close female friends get it. However most women I meet would treat a statement like this as an attack on them, even if they themselves aren’t engaging in this type of behavior.
That literally what being a liberal male is like.
I’m too out of touch with toxic people (thankfully I don’t know many), I’m unable to understand their reasoning
to the point that when you mentioned the “I can do better” mentality, my first thought was “I can do better to improve myself”, but instead it’s just shit about high or low value people
it’s sad that someone genuinely believes the world revolves around them
I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
Edit, y’all aren’t realizing that no cheating is a 100% thing and this person is blaming one of the 2 victims regardless, you all just want to blame one person with no self-reflection.
No my SO is a wonderful woman who is a feminist in the sense that she does not enjoy any form of gender roles. That was extremely common when we first started dating. We are both pretty happy in our relationship.
My frustration comes from watching a lot of my guy friends struggle. Just because I’m not the one being cucked doesn’t mean I appreciate seeing it in my social circles or appreciate seeing that behavior being defended.
Again, there’s a lot of dialogue about how women need to stick up for other women. The idea that men have to be in it for themselves is ridiculous.
That being said, I would have every right to be bitter if my SO pressured me into an open relationship, and my friend group watched because a small amount of women were very supportive of the idea and nobody wanted to confront them. That’s an extremely fucked up position to put anyone in.
As long as the woman is clear about it then your guy friends chasing that which cannot be caught is on them. Love is not a transaction and even if it was women have every right not to do business with people they don’t want to do business with.
In your example if your SO wanted an open relationship and you didn’t then that is when you say “if this is a deal breaker for both of us then we had a good run but I’m sorry.” It sucks, sure, but if you turn around and tell her that she can’t do what feels right to her then all you’re doing is using the relationship to pressure her into monogamy. It doesn’t fucking matter how popular or rare an idea is because you and your SO are individuals and have your own, individual needs. I mean christ, in your example you’re mad because a minority of women are supportive of her choice and that somehow makes it wrong? Do you hear yourself?
Again, my SO has never shown interest in “ethnical non monogamy”. She was actually a lot quicker to pass judgment on the subject when it first entered the public zeitgeist. I came to my conclusions about ethnical non monogamy after meeting people who practiced that IRL and watching their relationships implode. My SO would make it clear that she doesn’t approve of that lifestyle and didn’t want to make any moves to form direct friendships with them as opposed to simply being in the same social circle.
Are you in a relationship?
You offerer a hypothetical, I continued it.
I was in one, it was open, and while the openess was never really explored it was not at all a component in the ending of said relationship. In fact, I enjoyed that we could trust each other and have conversations with nuance about the topic.
The lady I’m crushin’ on right now has had to move away for going back to school so we’re keeping it friends until she comes back in the summer and even then it’ll need to be casual since she’s gotta go back after. In this case I’m not concerned with what is her business and she’s not concerned with what is my business, we just like each other and that’s that.
Regardless, I don’t need to be actively in a relationship to call out your nonsense and you’re dodging the question. C’mon, bud, do better.
A lot of words to say that you’re not in a committed relationship.
This is basic relationship stuff. Also if you’re in a longer term relationship, bailing for the sole purpose of fucking around is beyond shitty. manipulating your partner so you can fuck around while still having their emotional support is even worse.
All of this is very well understood when a man is shitty to a women. Yet when the reverse is true there’s a million different excuses that pour out of the woodwork.
I’ve never seen a successful open relationship. It always ends poorly, it always comes out that the man felt pressured, and it always comes out that part of the reason they let themselves suffer for this long is because everyone else acted like this was normal. The only time I’ve ever “met” someone in a successful open relationship is online, where there’s absolutely no context.
A lot of words to say that you’re not in a committed relationship.
Lol this is toxic masculinity, do some research.
And yet I’ve seen plenty of successful ones. Not everyone’s needs and desires align and you’re just going to have to get ovee that. You’re also whining about being pressured while actively trying to imply that people who want an open relationship should shut up and stick with monogamy. We call that “being a hypocrit”.
But I doubt you give a shit.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
What a colossally callous and heartless thing to say.
Being cheated on is a horrendous betrayal. “Bitter” is the least on the list of absolutely justified emotions to feel in response to that.
Flip the roles here
“Someone got cheated on and is bitter about it”
Makes it more clear how much of a prick you’re being
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, “Men are dangerous for women”. Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It’s not just housework but all kinds of things are taken much more seriously when a woman does something “wrong” than when a man does. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it’s not a surprise that the majority of men don’t, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of “invisible” because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a “standard” behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn’t deeply and actively questioned them. Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men too. But if you seriously think this is the average expectation of men towards women, then you should go outside and touch some grass. Just because toxic gender stereotypes exist, does not mean you have to acknowledge every bullshit sexist stereotype as the truth.
Women know that it isn’t every man, you’re not being helpful here. Women tell us all the time that they don’t feel safe and can back it up with so many examples of people that come off as good right until they’re putting her body in separate garbage bags. For a less intense version of that they come around to trust people and even accidentally the man ends up defensive and trying to make excuses for poor behaviour(s).
They deal with this shit all the fucking time and you complaining like you’re the victim in a post about their struggles is exactly what they’re fucking talking about.
Yes, women deal with literal serial killers all the time. Touch grass and come back to reality. 🙄
I literally said it was an intense example. If that’s what you took from my comment then good fucking lord…
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
No, and I throw that right back at you. Because you’re just supporting terrible stereotypes that further aid in the great divide and ultimately just feed the incel community. It’s like me saying all women are cheaters because that’s basically my experience, but at least I can acknowledge that I’m just an easy target for female predators instead of shoving it onto the gender as a whole. When you say “all men blah blah blah” then it does not matter if you truly mean it or not, you’re still ending up attacking and insulting everyone who is not part of that shit. And what’s the next reaction to it? “Oh don’t be so sensitive / fragile!” - which basically comes back to just being a toxic masculinity comment about men having to be strong and take it without complaining.
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If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles
The problem is that all too often those harmful gender roles are only called out as being harmful to women, not to men, but they are. The solution to the gender roles issue is not digging trenches between genders.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women.
I find the implication that there is not also a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men, quite amusing in its ignorance.
That is in absolutely no way implied by that statement; the existance of a truth does not imply the existance of it’s inverse.
yes but focusing on one side of the discussion ignoring its counterpart is a clear sign of bias, so despite being technically correct it’s unhelpful
What?? Keeping a discussion to one aspect of a topic is absolutely not an example of bias, it’s an example of contextual scope. It’s the only reason we can have a discussion about anything without having to include the full context it’s situated within (which would be the entire universe).
Long documents and researched history.
They say with no support.
This is a chat thread on a meme post, not an academic paper. “Gender roles exist” does not need a citation.
Women expect things from men: “women power!”
Men expect things from women: MISOGYNY !
Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don’t rape
Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way
atro_city: “these are the same picture”
There is no way you’re actually dumb enough to think those are representative of what the expectation norms are for either sex.
So stop being disingenuous.
Hmmm.
I’d phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn’t sexist; the other is saying that there’s a vast difference in risk. This becomes one of those tautological arguments where women can’t be sexist because sexism is redefined to mean “it can only be sexist if it’s men doing it.”
The “Would you rather a bear or…” question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it’d be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.
These sorts of tautologies - only whites can be racist, only men can be sexist - is sloppy, lazy, and dangerous, because it prevents introspection and always externalizes blame. I’m not saying that you are arguing a tautology, but that’s the essence of this thread: minimizing sexism against men in the basis that it can’t be sexism if rape isn’t involved. Which is exactly how this thread went, isn’t it?
I want to reiterate that I agree that there’s a false equivalency; consequences for women can be higher. My argument is that it doesn’t make it not sexism to broadly brush all men with a demeaning funny little tweet.
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
I’ll leave this here.
Across their lifetime, 1 in 3 women, around 736 million, are subjected to physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner or sexual violence from a non-partner – a number that has remained largely unchanged over the past decade.
In the US it’s 1 in 6 women (and 1 und 33 men).
https://rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
And last but bit least:
Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.
https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics
So no, jumping to rape is not a leap. The fear of sexual violence is part of beeing a women. I don’t know a single women that wasn’t in a situation that did or did almost resulted in sexual violence.
It’s not part of beeing a men. I have never in my life feared about sexual violence and I share that with the vast majority of men.
Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s
Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Except…entrenched gender roles are normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality, be it gender, age, ethnic or religious, is…just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn’t give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what’s worked quite well for millennia is what’s still working pretty effectively for several billion people.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time, merely opinions shaped by culture, background and opportunities. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the “good” parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just…selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something. Equality and equity of opportunity only exist when the opportunity exist. Otherwise it’s back to the dumb old shit we used to do.
Edited to add:
I didn’t phrase it well above,
The ground state for humanity is inequality. Whether we wish it or not.
The pursuit of equality and equity means these things need to be prioritised above other things.
It is hard to convince people to prioritise something they are not invested in, especially if they don’t benefit from it or value it.
“Normal” is a fluid term. It changes based on what the majority thinks. At some point slavery was normal and a part of life. But we as a society decided that we should move away from oppressive systems that marginalize and discriminate.
So, while it’s true that in many cultures “entrenched gender roles” are considered normal, that doesn’t mean certain people aren’t suffering from it. In fact, it doesn’t require much debate to acknowledge that in a system where there’s a power imbalance (in other words, inequality), there will inevitably be an oppressed group, and therefore, suffering.
As long as you consider “reducing the amount of suffering” an “absolute good/right”, then abolishing entrenched gender roles is an absolute good. Promoting gender equality doesn’t mean that women are prohibited from going to the kitchen and men must be stay-at-home dads. It simply ensures that these roles are a matter of personal choice rather than societal imposition.
Moreover, gender equality is not solely a liberal value; it has been promoted in various ideologies, including socialist and communist systems. While the practical implementation has varied, these systems have often supported the idea of gender equality alongside broader social reforms.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity) - the genders are either equal or they’re not. You’ve either achieved equality, or you haven’t. You either want equality, or you don’t.
And you clearly don’t.
Lie to yourself and make up as much pseudo scientific nonsense as you like, but it won’t change that you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity)
There is not. Equality is arbitrary. Equity is arbitrary. They are ideals / values that we each hold individually, and rank individually. Clearly, equality is an important value for you. Good. But your value of equality is shaped by you, not anyone else.
If you take your value set and say this should be the value set which everyone else has - you won’t change them. That’s my point. Equality is a value. It is ranked amongst other values. Do you value equality more than security? Financial independence? Safety? Control? Family? Social status? Faith? Children? Education? Career? Mastery of skill? Respect? Knowledge? Influence? Conservatism? Freedom? The environment?
For a given person you engage with, whether it be online, in person, in a relationship, over the phone, randomly in a street - their value set is intrinsic to them. Equality might not rank in their top five, or ten values. When you speak up on equality and say “you should”, people who don’t share your value set hear something different. What they hear is “You are wrong”. Speaking of which:
And you clearly don’t
you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong
sigh
That’s a shame. I’m sorry that you feel that way. Have to say it’s the first time I’ve been called a misogynist. I think if you met me you wouldn’t think that at all.
Your opinion of me doesn’t really matter - it doesn’t change anything. What did change things for me was reading The Mental Load by Emma. It crystallised what I already knew, and helped me to better understand the difference between contribution, effort and load.
Do you want to know why?
It’s not at all an uncommon story. Go to any women’s support group or site, and it’ll be a very consistent trend. A lot of people still have the old gender roles stuck in their heads, but they fail to acknowledge that some things have changed.
The big one is that women can now be financially independent. We’re only 2 generations away from women being able to open a bank in their name in the US. Before that, women didn’t have the financial freedom to live alone or divorce abusive/neglectful spouses.
The other one kind of ties into the first one, freedom of choice. It’s not as big an expectation for women to marry, and people are finding that a lot of women would prefer to be alone and single than married. Where do you think all these memes of childless cat ladies come from? It didn’t start with JD Vance. He just amplified it.
Generalizations about my out-group 👍
Generalizations about my in-group 👎
It isn’t about what an individual’s in or out groups are, it’s about what they are in society at large, and the power imbalance between them.
The point being made is that you won’t solve the issue if you divide society between men and women, instead of normal people and sexist bigots. The point is not to replace existing harmful sexist stereotypes with your own sexist stereotypes, but to come together and listen to each other.
“So stop getting so pissy about me assuming you’re a gangbanger, Jamal.”
Joke’s on you, my mother was completely unforgiving.
My mom beat my ass on the regular for any and every reason. Fuck this post.
These people never met my mother
Fellow bro, same here.
I hope you’re doing fine.
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Oh boy! Gender discussion?! My favorite!
“Boy” ??!? 😤
favorite??
As if some things are better than other things???
Author is painting men as needing forgiveness as if we’re just crossing lines like it’s our nature.
That’s patriarchy baby. Same genesis as “boys will be boys” or basically that males can’t control themselves, so society needs adapt to their fickle moods
Isn’t that also the basis of the gay panic defense, that a man loses control of his body in response to being “tricked” into the gay or whatever shit they say.
That’s the gay panic defense. We have to specify because the police also commonly use a panic defense. Like when they shoot into a crowd and claim someone charged them. (Yes they did that, the NYPD, no they haven’t released body cam footage yet, no nobody else is supporting their story)
That’s true, damn, there really shouldn’t be any panic defense at all. Someone who “loses control of their body” still committed a crime, and while in certain cases recognition and rehabilitation can help, them “losing control” or “panicking” is not an excuse for something they still did. If being drunk isn’t an excuse panic shouldn’t be one either.
Same basic logic as the cases where someone ties their victim to a bed, fetches some accelerant, douses them and sets them on fire in self defense.
Perhaps I should play the part assigned to me.
Noooo don’t do that, you’re so pretty lol
I what? Who are you?
I am but a man.
How do you know I’m pretty?
Call it a hunch
If you feel pretty and you act pretty then you are pretty
Shhh it’s not sexism be quiet.
I’m pretty sure it is, and no.
My wife is far more forgiving and loving than my mother ever was.
Bro I think I’ve heard my mom tell me she loves me like, 5 times in my entire life. My dad would tell me more regularly, after the divorce.
My wife tells me every day.
I feel you. There’s also a difference between saying I love you and actually feeling loved.
My daughters are wayyyyy more forgiving then my wife.
My wife is wayyyyy more forgiving than my mother lol.
You guys get forgiveness?
Yeah, was about to say my mom would beat me with kitchen utensils until they broke for eating her crackers. My daughters just kind of hug me and say “it’s ok, dad”.
What’s the feminized version of a circlejerk? Circlerub? Circlejill? Circlefling?
I think jerk is a gender neutral term.
Oh now you’re gonna get lactical with it eh?
Circleflick? Circletoss?
Conflickulation
Gossiping.
Comment section here showing the user demographics of Lemmy lol
In what way? it looks 50/50 to me.
these 2 statements are not mutually exclusive
There is no escape… 😑
(I mean, there is as far as blocking them all, but you still know they’re there, crawling all over and invading every space that exists)
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Oh. Oh no.
On the one hand definitely oh no.
On the other hand - phew, I’ve already taken the garbage out… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least you’re self aware… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
well, lemmy.world has defederated or has been defederated by a bunch of progressive instances.
Idk. Lemmy.world in my book is a generic progressive instance. Marxist-Leninist (.ml) instances on the other hand….
LW is a centrist instance, if anything.
Maybe centrist on economic / foreign policy yah. I do think LW is progressive on social and domestic issues.
Where foreign = outside of the western world.
That’s right. We export our fascism to shithole countries so we don’t have to deal with it at home. Checkmate socialists!
