For the love of God can’t we just make sex work legal, take the shame out of it, and STOP associating it with massage? PLEASE?!?
I’ve been a massage therapist for almost 20 years now and have got the point where the sex jokes hit with about the same impact as asking the cashier if something is free if the item doesn’t scan at the register. I work in hospice, and not 3 weeks ago I had a patient’s brother in law giggle and ask me if I gave his sister in law a happy ending. My inside voice said “no, sorry, she’s still breathing so she has to keep dealing with you” while my outside voice pretended not to hear the comment.
There used to be a “traditional” massage salon in my neighbourhood which looked extremely legit, medical, and had zero hints that “happy endings” were on the menu.
For years I was convinced that it really was one of those shops where they do not offer the sleazy stuff. People I know went there to get massages, men and women. I never went because I’m convinced massages are snake oil and a waste of money.
Then one day they were raided and closed down by the local authorities. Turned out despite the upstanding image, they did offer the happy ending version, you just had to know the “unofficial” phone number and codeword.
So that didn’t exactly help to solidify my trust that there are massage businesses that are truly not offering any kind of sex work ever.
Not judging it, but the image they have is earned to say the least.
Therein lies part of the problem. A large number of those places that disguise themselves as legitimate clinics are actually covers for human trafficking.
Depending on where you are, becoming a massage therapist can take a couple years and cost thousands of dollars, require exams, and licensing. Legitimate massage therapists aren’t going to risk throwing everything away for a couple extra bucks for a handy. If sex work was legal, people wouldn’t have to masquerade as much behind legitimate business.
As for massage being snake oil, I guess it depends on what the person is claiming it’s going to do. Like I said, I’ve been doing this almost 20 years now, and have worked in health clubs (mostly doing sports/injury recovery/rehab stuff), education (teaching massage, anatomy, physiology, pathology), and now working hospice the last several years. Massage can be great for pain relief, relaxation, and general comfort. For some people with circulatory issues like lymphedema, massage can help reduce the fluid settling in their extremities. Unfortunately historically there’s a lot of questionable and downright bullshit practices that have been attached to massage, but massage on it’s own? If you like to be touched, it can be a good thing.
people wouldn’t have to masquerade as much behind legitimate business.
Yes, that’s the point - they’d BE a legitimate business anyway. Sadly, the concept of it being not so, is so ingrained in Western (American and British, at least) culture that even comments in support reveal an unconscious bias that’s hard to overcome.
Legalizing it won’t take the shame out. There is no such thing as serious and dignified sex. We’re animals that have a really fucking stupid and silly desire that we’re aware of but can’t just not want anyhow. Best we can do is try not to take it seriously.
They’re talking about how religions like Christianity make sex a “shameful” act that should never be enjoyed outside of anything but institutional marriage, even though it’s completely natural to desire consensual sex for myriad reasons.
The fact that humans can recognize the biological motivations of sexuality and its various purposes (pleasure, connection, procreation) doesn’t make sex stupid, silly, or somehow undignified. Religious institutions try hard to make anything sexual a sin in order to shame adherents into not having sex because “only God can grant you that joy and only within marriage, anything else sends you straight to hell.”
Did … did you just say pedophilia is natural? Any and all arguments you have made are null and void. Your opinion is shit and you should feel like shit.
You don’t think there’s an evolutionary advantage to getting at girls first when they’re young as possible before other guys do? You don’t think that advantage from that behavior got passed into genes? Why do you think it happens? There’s no rational sociably equitable reason for it. I’m not sitting here condoning it. It’s obviously bad. Youth generally comes with all the indicators of health. I don’t think you consider the word ‘natural’ the same way I do. You think of natural as being ‘okay and healthy’ and I think of it as ‘wild, competitive, and not consciously regulated’. Behavior is not generally without reason. Everything is because of reasons.
this sounds like incel logic disguised as sensible evolutionary science. we have social etiquette that requires treating these topics with a delicacy that you have completely ignored which raises all sorts of red flags. if you want to be listened to about controversial topics then you are going about it in an awful way.
Against my better judgement I’m gonna try to respond to this.
You don’t think there’s an evolutionary advantage to getting at girls first when they’re young as possible before other guys do?
To begin with, prepubescent girls can’t get pregnant. After that, young girls have an increased risk of not being able to carry a pregnancy to term, dying in childbirth, and of birthing children who end up underdeveloped.
You don’t think that advantage from that behavior got passed into genes?
No, then it would likely be more commonplace instead of being abnormal.
Youth generally comes with all the indicators of health.
I strongly disagree with this assessment when it comes to people who have not physically developed into adulthood yet.
Behavior is not generally without reason. Everything is because of reasons.
Sometimes those reasons are because something has gone wrong. Or because of random chance. To think every behavior fulfills an intended purpose that is evolutionarily beneficial is unscientific in my view.
I’d be interested in pressing that a little with people who consider them opposites. Do they think a plain T-shirt and jeans are undignified or formal? What about think fixing yourself a quick cup of tea or coffee?
There will always be people who think differently, but if they view the above as undignified or formal, we probably have very disparate ideas of those concepts that we’d need to agree on before we could actually discuss the dignity of casual sex.
Because sex is silly. Dignity is all about distancing yourself from the dirty and putting yourself above it. That shit just don’t work when I’m licking toes.
I’m sorry, but I have respect for a guy who can expertly sex up his partner. A guy who sees sex as filthy and indignant? Nope, I don’t respect that crap
Through my eyes the first guy has dignity, the second has problems.
Yep, that’s shame. But you’re not obligated to be ashamed of it. Not everyone is. There’s nothing wrong about having sex. It’s the culture around us that makes it feel shameful for many people.
Exactly, no need to be ashamed of our natural processes. I know people who are physically unable to pee when they know there are people in the next room. And then there are people who can keep perfectly self confident even during those occasions and who don’t mind having a conversation while at the bathroom :)
People like you who look away from the bad shit are the ones who enable it. The pedos and rapists won’t seek help when you make them taboo. Instead they’ll hide and that’s where they do the most damage. It’s not people like me you have to worry about. All I do is approach the topic with honesty and keep my eyes open.
nah. You’re a huge waking Red Flag. Your premise is based on the idea that human beings have no sense of self control. You claim to be an atheist, but are using the same logic as theists do, but framed differently.
You’re getting dragged in the discussion below, and while I think I understand your more specific points below, I’d like to offer some perspective on this general point instead of continuing down those lines.
Here you’ve set the tone by calling sex inherently shameful. Not being serious/dignified isn’t the same as shameful. For me, shame comes with some moral failing. I’m ashamed when I disappoint someone, or get angry for something petty, or act petty myself. Not because of being undignified. I’m not ashamed when I fart, that’s just my body. However, I am ashamed when I fart in a public place, because it’s smelly and few people deserve to suffer like that.
So my counterargument to your perspective here: sex isn’t inherently shameful, but it can be because of context. Banging too loud when having guests over is shameful: not because of being loud, but because of the lack of consent - being too loud when everyone around consents to that kind of behavior is fine. No shame if you’re in a place where everyone is hooking up, and everyone knows the walls are thin. That’s just fun. Not dignified, not serious, but fun. So the sex part isn’t the problem. Not inherently.
To the main point - if everyone would just be cool about sex work, I honestly think folks wouldn’t ascribe shame to participating in sex work. I’ve lived in small communities in the Amazon where there was essentially no shame associated with consensual non monogamy, outside of the religious folk. Different social structure and beliefs in that region made it much more open…so I heartily reject calling sex a shameful act. That’s too much moral baggage to ascribe to such a natural, zesty enterprise.
Would you brag about how many people you let fuck you for money? I didn’t say sex is shameful. The topic is prostitution. You have sex for money when you’re too lazy to do something productive or when you’re naturally good looking and wanna make a big profit on people’s lust. I don’t need religion to tell me that shit is lame.
Sex is fine. Getting rich for your body count is gross.
Edit: prostitution is lame for basically the same reason as music artists selling out.
Ok well there we go: I don’t think sex work is inherently “lame”, nor that it should be stigmatized.
I’ve never had sex for money, or paid for sex, but I don’t see why it should be illegal or shameful. I’ve watched plenty of porn that’s shameful because of the exploitation of folks, but there’s good porn out there that isn’t that. As for literally prostitution, and not the broader sex work label…some folks are too anxious to have sex without it, some people want to engage in really specific kinks, some people are just bored and want no strings attached sex.
Sex is as natural as eating, and I think being a good chef is something to be proud of.
For the love of God can’t we just make sex work legal, take the shame out of it, and STOP associating it with massage? PLEASE?!?
I’ve been a massage therapist for almost 20 years now and have got the point where the sex jokes hit with about the same impact as asking the cashier if something is free if the item doesn’t scan at the register. I work in hospice, and not 3 weeks ago I had a patient’s brother in law giggle and ask me if I gave his sister in law a happy ending. My inside voice said “no, sorry, she’s still breathing so she has to keep dealing with you” while my outside voice pretended not to hear the comment.
“Happy Endings” ironically being a great name for a hospice.
Oof
Ho spice is exactly what we’re trying to normalize!!
There used to be a “traditional” massage salon in my neighbourhood which looked extremely legit, medical, and had zero hints that “happy endings” were on the menu. For years I was convinced that it really was one of those shops where they do not offer the sleazy stuff. People I know went there to get massages, men and women. I never went because I’m convinced massages are snake oil and a waste of money.
Then one day they were raided and closed down by the local authorities. Turned out despite the upstanding image, they did offer the happy ending version, you just had to know the “unofficial” phone number and codeword.
So that didn’t exactly help to solidify my trust that there are massage businesses that are truly not offering any kind of sex work ever.
Not judging it, but the image they have is earned to say the least.
Therein lies part of the problem. A large number of those places that disguise themselves as legitimate clinics are actually covers for human trafficking.
Depending on where you are, becoming a massage therapist can take a couple years and cost thousands of dollars, require exams, and licensing. Legitimate massage therapists aren’t going to risk throwing everything away for a couple extra bucks for a handy. If sex work was legal, people wouldn’t have to masquerade as much behind legitimate business.
As for massage being snake oil, I guess it depends on what the person is claiming it’s going to do. Like I said, I’ve been doing this almost 20 years now, and have worked in health clubs (mostly doing sports/injury recovery/rehab stuff), education (teaching massage, anatomy, physiology, pathology), and now working hospice the last several years. Massage can be great for pain relief, relaxation, and general comfort. For some people with circulatory issues like lymphedema, massage can help reduce the fluid settling in their extremities. Unfortunately historically there’s a lot of questionable and downright bullshit practices that have been attached to massage, but massage on it’s own? If you like to be touched, it can be a good thing.
Yes, that’s the point - they’d BE a legitimate business anyway. Sadly, the concept of it being not so, is so ingrained in Western (American and British, at least) culture that even comments in support reveal an unconscious bias that’s hard to overcome.
WTF is wrong with people… “Hey did you jerk off my dying SIL?”
Eww, like the cashier joke is inoffensive but the the happy ending is just eww
maybe I’m being too purist/prejudiced to feel that way?
Legalizing it won’t take the shame out. There is no such thing as serious and dignified sex. We’re animals that have a really fucking stupid and silly desire that we’re aware of but can’t just not want anyhow. Best we can do is try not to take it seriously.
You’re confusing Abrahamic religious manipulation with human nature.
Bro I have no idea what you’re on about, but you should smoke some shit that makes some sense.
They’re talking about how religions like Christianity make sex a “shameful” act that should never be enjoyed outside of anything but institutional marriage, even though it’s completely natural to desire consensual sex for myriad reasons.
The fact that humans can recognize the biological motivations of sexuality and its various purposes (pleasure, connection, procreation) doesn’t make sex stupid, silly, or somehow undignified. Religious institutions try hard to make anything sexual a sin in order to shame adherents into not having sex because “only God can grant you that joy and only within marriage, anything else sends you straight to hell.”
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Did … did you just say pedophilia is natural? Any and all arguments you have made are null and void. Your opinion is shit and you should feel like shit.
You don’t think there’s an evolutionary advantage to getting at girls first when they’re young as possible before other guys do? You don’t think that advantage from that behavior got passed into genes? Why do you think it happens? There’s no rational sociably equitable reason for it. I’m not sitting here condoning it. It’s obviously bad. Youth generally comes with all the indicators of health. I don’t think you consider the word ‘natural’ the same way I do. You think of natural as being ‘okay and healthy’ and I think of it as ‘wild, competitive, and not consciously regulated’. Behavior is not generally without reason. Everything is because of reasons.
this sounds like incel logic disguised as sensible evolutionary science. we have social etiquette that requires treating these topics with a delicacy that you have completely ignored which raises all sorts of red flags. if you want to be listened to about controversial topics then you are going about it in an awful way.
Against my better judgement I’m gonna try to respond to this.
To begin with, prepubescent girls can’t get pregnant. After that, young girls have an increased risk of not being able to carry a pregnancy to term, dying in childbirth, and of birthing children who end up underdeveloped.
No, then it would likely be more commonplace instead of being abnormal.
I strongly disagree with this assessment when it comes to people who have not physically developed into adulthood yet.
Sometimes those reasons are because something has gone wrong. Or because of random chance. To think every behavior fulfills an intended purpose that is evolutionarily beneficial is unscientific in my view.
That first sentence made me physically recoil. What is wrong with you? Go seek help, for all of our sakes.
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We can have dignified sleep, food, and bathing, and those are silly animalistic needs. Why not sex?
I’m into casual sex.
I do it naked, what’s more casual than that?
Casual and dignified aren’t opposites though, I don’t see the issue.
To some people it is.
I’d be interested in pressing that a little with people who consider them opposites. Do they think a plain T-shirt and jeans are undignified or formal? What about think fixing yourself a quick cup of tea or coffee?
There will always be people who think differently, but if they view the above as undignified or formal, we probably have very disparate ideas of those concepts that we’d need to agree on before we could actually discuss the dignity of casual sex.
Because sex is silly. Dignity is all about distancing yourself from the dirty and putting yourself above it. That shit just don’t work when I’m licking toes.
A turducken is not more dignified than licking toes.
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I’m sorry, but I have respect for a guy who can expertly sex up his partner. A guy who sees sex as filthy and indignant? Nope, I don’t respect that crap
Through my eyes the first guy has dignity, the second has problems.
Dignity is stupid and worthless for anyone not trying to control their image.
Dignified sex sounds like an oxymoron, or at the very least, rubbish sex.
Not serious does not equal shameful. You should not feel ashamed to have fun.
Edit: You should feel very ashamed if you hurt someone while having fun, but that’s a different story.
I’ll be embarrassed if someone walks in. That’s shame.
Yep, that’s shame. But you’re not obligated to be ashamed of it. Not everyone is. There’s nothing wrong about having sex. It’s the culture around us that makes it feel shameful for many people.
Nothing wrong about taking a shit, either.
Exactly, no need to be ashamed of our natural processes. I know people who are physically unable to pee when they know there are people in the next room. And then there are people who can keep perfectly self confident even during those occasions and who don’t mind having a conversation while at the bathroom :)
Hey, FBI? Yeah, this guy. Keep an eye on him.
People like you who look away from the bad shit are the ones who enable it. The pedos and rapists won’t seek help when you make them taboo. Instead they’ll hide and that’s where they do the most damage. It’s not people like me you have to worry about. All I do is approach the topic with honesty and keep my eyes open.
nah. You’re a huge waking Red Flag. Your premise is based on the idea that human beings have no sense of self control. You claim to be an atheist, but are using the same logic as theists do, but framed differently.
You think everyone out there is exercising their self control, or do you think we just deleted our instincts? Either thought is stupid AF.
You’re getting dragged in the discussion below, and while I think I understand your more specific points below, I’d like to offer some perspective on this general point instead of continuing down those lines.
Here you’ve set the tone by calling sex inherently shameful. Not being serious/dignified isn’t the same as shameful. For me, shame comes with some moral failing. I’m ashamed when I disappoint someone, or get angry for something petty, or act petty myself. Not because of being undignified. I’m not ashamed when I fart, that’s just my body. However, I am ashamed when I fart in a public place, because it’s smelly and few people deserve to suffer like that.
So my counterargument to your perspective here: sex isn’t inherently shameful, but it can be because of context. Banging too loud when having guests over is shameful: not because of being loud, but because of the lack of consent - being too loud when everyone around consents to that kind of behavior is fine. No shame if you’re in a place where everyone is hooking up, and everyone knows the walls are thin. That’s just fun. Not dignified, not serious, but fun. So the sex part isn’t the problem. Not inherently.
To the main point - if everyone would just be cool about sex work, I honestly think folks wouldn’t ascribe shame to participating in sex work. I’ve lived in small communities in the Amazon where there was essentially no shame associated with consensual non monogamy, outside of the religious folk. Different social structure and beliefs in that region made it much more open…so I heartily reject calling sex a shameful act. That’s too much moral baggage to ascribe to such a natural, zesty enterprise.
Would you brag about how many people you let fuck you for money? I didn’t say sex is shameful. The topic is prostitution. You have sex for money when you’re too lazy to do something productive or when you’re naturally good looking and wanna make a big profit on people’s lust. I don’t need religion to tell me that shit is lame.
Sex is fine. Getting rich for your body count is gross.
Edit: prostitution is lame for basically the same reason as music artists selling out.
Ok well there we go: I don’t think sex work is inherently “lame”, nor that it should be stigmatized.
I’ve never had sex for money, or paid for sex, but I don’t see why it should be illegal or shameful. I’ve watched plenty of porn that’s shameful because of the exploitation of folks, but there’s good porn out there that isn’t that. As for literally prostitution, and not the broader sex work label…some folks are too anxious to have sex without it, some people want to engage in really specific kinks, some people are just bored and want no strings attached sex.
Sex is as natural as eating, and I think being a good chef is something to be proud of.
I don’t think we’re gonna reach an agreement here.
Seems like we won’t, but hopefully we both learned something.
Meanwhile literal driving mods of communities are calling me a pedophile as if I’m promoting the shit.