The US president accused the Ukrainian leader of being disrespectful in a tense meeting in the Oval Office.
    • SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml
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      14 days ago

      This was literally me as I was watching. I couldn’t help but keep cringing, sometimes I had to physically look away.

    • davel [he/him]@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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      14 days ago

      If it weren’t for TV, neither of these guys would ever have been politicians at all, never mind presidents. Pure spectacle.

        • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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          14 days ago

          They keep talking about Ukrainian democracy but i can’t find any. Maybe my definition of democracy is different.

          Apparently, according to Bernie “Israel has a right to defend itself” Sanders, democracy is when you cancel elections, ban opposition parties, forbid peace negotiations, place all media under state control, arrest people for social media posts calling for peace, beat up priests, abduct men off the streets into vans and force them to go die in the trenches, murder journalists, and torture regime critics to death in secret prisons.

          • Dengalicious@lemmygrad.ml
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            13 days ago

            What do you mean? José Napoleón Duarte was a shining example of democracy in Latin America, supported by the glorious free USA 🦅 Nothing he did could be construed as anti-democracy so Zelensky doing the same thing also isn’t.

      • albigu@lemmygrad.ml
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        14 days ago

        Wouldn’t the Yugoslavia War with bombing from NATO at least compete for the title of “bloodiest European war”?

        • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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          14 days ago

          It’s also just stupid, even in terms of purely cynical political gain. Three years ago it was certainly politically advantageous to virtue signal support for Ukraine. But we can see which way the wind is blowing now. The US wants to ditch project Ukraine and they are currently in the process of unwinding the heroization propaganda surrounding Zelensky. The veil that has hidden the ugly reality of what has been going on in Ukraine for these past years will be slowly lifted so that the US can say “it’s not our fault the war was lost, look how corrupt they turned out to be”. And all of the European leaders and all the Democrats and “progressives” in the US who insist on tying their political credibility to the sinking ship that is Zelensky are going to be dragged down along with him.

          If you’re going to be a rat at least be a smart one. Know when it’s time to switch sides.

    • Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml
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      14 days ago

      Vance started with “bidens plan failed, we need diplomacy” Then zelensky said “What kind of diplomacy” and then it all went down hill with trump and vance trying to tell him that he has no cards left to play and they are trying to salvage what they can and he is just making stupid demands and excuses. zelensky said “Since the begining of the war we have been alone” and trump came in with " You havent been alone, We gave you through the stupid president 350 billion dollars. Your men are very brave but if we didn’t give you our millitasry equipment this war would have been over in 2 weeks"

    • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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      14 days ago

      vance: “mr zelensky, youre being disrespectful!”

      zelensky: “no u”

      trump: “putin was right”

      basically

  • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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    14 days ago

    I know the whole thing about Trump being a narcissist is kind of surface level problems with the US, but I rarely actually sit through listening to him speak and it’s striking how on the nose the characteristics are. It seems clear he wants to humiliate the guy in front of a large audience and make him kiss the ring, and that’s why it’s not a private meeting. Though in actuality, to me, it humiliates everyone involved in the discussion; they all come out looking ridiculous in various ways. It’s like one of those internet arguments that feels important to the people involved in the moment, but just looks like petty noise from the outside.

    • Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml
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      14 days ago

      I think that mess was intentional plan by trump. trump said something to the effect of “its good we did this in front of the cameras because the American people need to see what I have to deal with”

      I don’t think it was about humiliation so much as trying to undo years of propaganda. Showing people that zelenski isn’t the kind of heroic brave man the media made him out to be.

      Zelenski came out of that looking weak, belligerent, and ungrateful. But Trump just came out of that looking like trump.

      • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
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        14 days ago

        weird, to me zelensky came out as courageous (tho dumb and unreasonable) while both vance and trump came out as wimps. Zelensky is after all raising his voice at his enablers.

        “mr zelensky youre being disrespectful!” Lmao just come on, its your home turf and he is your subject, why do you say it like that 😂

      • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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        14 days ago

        I don’t think it was about humiliation so much as trying to undo years of propaganda.

        Yup. This is what i suspect was the intention all along. Trump now has the perfect excuse to distance himself from the Ukraine debacle.

        • Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml
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          14 days ago

          I see Trump using this to push for “elections.” I imagine there will be silence on that topic from Russia while they and the us figure out who the next president will be behind closed doors.

          I don’t think anyone has told zelenski “call elections or we will kill you” yet but that message is coming soon.

          • cayde6ml@lemmygrad.ml
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            14 days ago

            For a long while now, the U.S./UkraNazi far-right have supposedly been contemplating assassinating Zelenskyy.

              • cayde6ml@lemmygrad.ml
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                14 days ago

                Putin and the Russian government aren’t stupid. While they could be better, I put them almost up there with China in terms of long-term planning, common sense, reasoning, and sharp historical memory. They 99.99 percent won’t accept a fake ceasefire. Only a quality one, at least.

          • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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            14 days ago

            Maybe. I still think elections in Ukraine while the war is ongoing are unlikely. My feeling is that the Europeans will try to prevent an election at all costs because they’ve invested too much in Zelensky… but who knows at this point. I never expected this meeting to go as bad as it did either. We’re living in interesting times…

    • SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml
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      14 days ago

      In all seriousness, I finally watched the exchange and WOW the secondhand embarrassment I felt was strong. I had to watch this in 1.5x speed because it was so bad. I don’t think I’ve witnessed a more uncomfortable and unproductive conversation in my life. I had no faith in Trump, or Vance, to have a proper conversation about ending the war but this was worse than I expected. None of these people know what diplomacy is, also Vance lecturing Zelenskyy for a “thank you”, like he’s a child, was hard to watch and so stupid.

  • Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml
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    14 days ago

    One thing that pops out quite strongly to me is that when Trump tells Zelensky that they aren’t winning the war, Zelensky responds with

    We are staying in our country. We are staying strong

    Zelensky can’t even say in public that they are winning, or have a chance of winning. Only that the fighting will continue. He wants to continue bleeding Ukrainian lives no matter what. He has no rebuke to Trump’s statement that they are wasting life, or gambling with WW3. It’s a testament of how delusional you have to be that Trump is coming across as the reasonable voice of peace when dealing with you!