I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).

  • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
    13·
    11 days ago

    I hate to be the one to tell you this, and I mean no offense, but you just don’t understand; we’re not as moral as we think. 🤔

    • 𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠@programming.dev
      2·
      11 days ago

      Lmao as if I don’t know? Philosophy experiments are fun and all but humans just suck at conceptualizing beyond what we can see. Random kids across the ocean people have a hard time empathising with unprompted.

      Regardless, this is another completely irrelevant article you’ve shared. Perhaps one could argue the west is standing by as a Ukrainian child is drowning. But that’s still infinitely more moral and ethical than taking the child from his mother, dragging it into a pond, raping it there, then shooting it, all in front of their mother, only to then call it “provoked” and “self-defense”, all because mommy decided to open a Tinder account and matched with a couple western guys. Because that’s all justified of course, only a couple decades ago were you their abusive boyfriend so clearly it’s justified, right?

      Such a paragon of morality, that Putin fella.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
            14·
            10 days ago

            I fail to see how any of this relates to someone being called a Nazi apologist. You’ve created a straw man that I support Putin’s invasion (even though I stated that I am opposed). Adults with higher level critical thinking understand that one can be opposed to Putin and Russian imperialism, while also being opposed to NATO and western imperialism. Even with my limited IQ of 142, I can avoid the binary fallacy that if Dugin inspired Russian imperialists are the bad guys, then, by default, Ukraine and their western imperialist NATO supporters must be the good guys.

            • 𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠@programming.dev
              1·
              10 days ago

              You started with the claim that Putin was somehow “provoked” into committing mass rape and murder on an innocent civilian population. That’s an imperialist/fascist talking point, literally used by the Nazis back when Hitler invaded Poland.

              At no point have I claimed you support the invasion (that’s a strawman you just made up), only that you made excuses for it. Hence why you were called a Nazi apologist.

              Even with my limited IQ of 142

              Ah, that explains it. You must have at least 160 IQ in order to understand that making excuses for Putins invasion is morally indefensible.

              Also, pretending both-sidesism is somehow enlightened is hilarious. In this conflict, it’s pretty fucking clear who is on the moral highground, ulterior motives be damned. Putin sent in a military that rapes and murders innocent civilians, NATO has provided weapons to the Ukrainian military to prevent that. Even if you believe NATO has a secret master plan to topple Putin or whatever, defending an innocent civilian population is a good thing regardless of any geopolitical reasoning involved.

                • 𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠@programming.dev
                  1·
                  10 days ago

                  The writer of that article is an apologist as well. He cites tons of imperialist arguments for why Ukraine as a sovereign nation apparently doesn’t matter and how everyone should bend to Russia because they are a “great power” (an imperialist concept). He has also written other articles that seek to blame the West for what happened, despite having terrible and easily countered arguments for it. His article on “western meddling in Ukraine” is especially terrible. In it, he claims EU meddling was brazen, because (and I’m not joking here) one high-ranking EU official expressed her support for the protesters and handed out cookies.

                  The US meddling was supposedly more brazen, with a leaked phone call discussing who the US would like to see take power. But as others have already noted:

                  Yale University professor Timothy Snyder said, “Imagine just how much evidence the Russians have of what the U.S. was doing in Ukraine, given that they had access to that telephone call. That was the best bit they could come up with. And in the context of the time, what that telephone conversation showed was that the Americans were, A, not up to date about what was happening in Ukraine and, B, unable to influence events happening in Ukraine.”

                  It’s also blatantly ignoring that nothing unconstitutional happened (other than the firing on protesters killing over a hundred civilians), that Yanukovych was voted out of office by a large majority of the democratically elected parliament and that the first thing they did was hold new elections.

                  It’s also blatantly ignoring Russian meddling, providing 2 billion to Yanukovych and effectively ordering him to crush the protests (possibly the final trigger that led to his removal).

                  You can’t accept the arguments in that article without also accepting that Ukraine is a vassal state to Russia, which it just isn’t. Russia could have done plenty to make themselves more popular with their neighbours, but never did. They did nothing but demand, demand, demand. Nobody is required to listen to those unreasonable demands, and claiming that not doing so is “provocative” is total horseshit.

                  Some of us are more concerned with human lives than preserving imaginary lines drawn a map.

                  If only that was true for Putin.

                  • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
                    13·
                    10 days ago

                    I see you are not fond of citing sources that can be verified. I don’t have such misgivings:

                    The Spy War: How the C.I.A. Secretly Helps Ukraine Fight Putin

                    For more than a decade, the United States has nurtured a secret intelligence partnership with Ukraine that is now critical for both countries in countering Russia.

                    The underground bunker, built to replace the destroyed command center in the months after Russia’s invasion, is a secret nerve center of Ukraine’s military.

                    There is also one more secret: The base is almost fully financed, and partly equipped, by the C.I.A.

                    “One hundred and ten percent,” Gen. Serhii Dvoretskiy, a top intelligence commander, said in an interview at the base.

                    But the partnership is no wartime creation, nor is Ukraine the only beneficiary.

                    It took root a decade ago, coming together in fits and starts under three very different U.S. presidents, pushed forward by key individuals who often took daring risks. It has transformed Ukraine, whose intelligence agencies were long seen as thoroughly compromised by Russia, into one of Washington’s most important intelligence partners against the Kremlin today.

                    The C.I.A.’s partnership in Ukraine can be traced back to two phone calls on the night of Feb. 24, 2014, eight years to the day before Russia’s full-scale invasion.

                    That’s a lot of cookies 🍪 and Fremdschämen

                    No doubt Putin and Russia were meddling in Ukraine before 2014; but let’s not pretend NATO and the U.S. did not influence the situation.