The Democrats, in the eyes of liberals, can only be failed, they cannot fail of their own accord. Now, more than ever, is a good time to start reading theory, as many liberals are disaffected by the US election. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism in case anyone wants one.
This wasn’t the Democrats being failed, it was the whole country being failed. It wasn’t about voting for the Democrats, it was about voting against Donald Trump, and there was only one way to effectively do that. Everyone who refused to do that got exactly what they voted for with Trump, whatever ends up happening, but rather than accepting that maybe this was the worst option, they’re just posting memes about how everyone didn’t push back against the democrats hard enough, so I doubt it’ll sink in.
Do you think continuing the slide into fascism as Capitalism continues to decay is a good thing? If not, how do you plan on stopping it?
The fact of the matter is that the Democrats ran to the right of Biden in 2020 and committed fully to genocide. They lost the support they had, and they lost enough to lose the popular vote as well as electoral college. This was a massive failure, and if your plan was simply to vote Dem and hope for the best, then it’s clear that your plan A failed. What’s your plan B?
Plan B has a stink on it. We are calling it Plan D now.
Fair enough. What’s Plan D?
Plan A, basically, without the stink.
Organize, prepare for direct actions, build solidarity.
Everyone always talks like defeating Trump in the election is the end-all be-all of the disussion. Voting Democrat and preventing Trump from taking the white house should have been an obvious step. It is not the best outcome for the election, nor is it the end of the ongoing decay of late-stage capitalism into wealth-based fascism, but all this whataboutism and strawmanning Democrat voters as believing Kamala was going to single-handedly save democracy is disingenous. It was never “Plan A”. It was one minor, marginally better compromise in the collective of shit we should be doing.
Voting Kamala failed. The Democrats failed to run a campaign that won. That is in the past. What I am saying is that voting Democrat did not work, so I am asking what their plan actually is, if voting Dem wasn’t plan A then what is?
Leftists already have a plan that isn’t contingent on winning a presidential election. Do liberals?
No, they don’t. Liberals believe that voting democrat every four years and arguing with leftists on the internet is activism.
The Brunch Brigade, I call them.
That fits nicely because it’s always people who have and will continue to have enough food in their belly that they can indulge in an extra meal while indulging in fantasies like ‘one more election cycle, pleeeease, I trust them to stop murdering millions of innocent people, just one more election cycle and then they’ll fix everything, pleeease’.
I wouldn’t know. I’m not an American, not a card-carrying liberal voter on my country.
What I do know is that this constant othering is how these problems were created in the first place. Spending time and energy building straw men on the Internet is creating enemies, not allies. If you are genuinely dedicated to spreading information and awareness, as your earlier post suggests, making assumptions and jumping down people’s throats is hurting your cause, not helping it.
We are currently in the process of creating a larger divide in left-minded individuals, and I am unbelievably sick of it. As the right rapidly unifys, we seem to be learning nothing.
“Othering” is not the cause of problems of polarization, but sharpening of contradictions in decaying Capitalism. Wealth disparity is sky-high and only rapidly climbing. I don’t see how I am “jumping down people’s throats,” I am very clearly saying that since voting Harris didn’t work, there must be another plan, and I’m asking what that plan is.
What’s non-wealth-based fascism?
What’s your plan B?
What’s yours? Since letting Trump get elected was apparently Step 1, what’s Step 2? Where are we going now? Come on, fill us in.
Or, alternately, stop putting words in other peoples’ mouths and consider that what we have now is worse for everyone than the alternative would have been.
I didn’t get Trump elected, lol. Even if I wanted to, I couldn’t. The election isn’t a part of any Leftist’s plans.
The answer is revolution, as it always has been, and that starts with organizing. I’ve even made an introductory Marxist reading list that has gotten several people to read theory, and hopefully join Leftists in organizing. Yes, I did link it at the beginning of this convo, and no, you didn’t click it, otherwise you’d know what my plan is because I spell it out.
What’s your plan? Endlessly critique on Lemmy and blame voters for the failures of the DNC?
I didn’t get Trump elected, lol.
And this right here is our unresolvable ideological difference. You refuse to consider that by not voting for the better option, you’re partially responsible for what we have now. Good luck with your revolution, I guess. We have nothing else to discuss.
You seem to be assuming that they didn’t vote for no apparent reason.
I don’t care if they did or didn’t; I find them to be completely insufferable and have no desire to engage with them further.
You don’t know who I voted for, and it doesn’t matter. I could have voted De La Crúz, Stein, Oliver, Harris, Trump, any of them, and it would not have made a shred of difference, and unlike you, I have planned for that already. You still haven’t told me your plan, so I guess I was right, it really is just to whine on Lemmy and blame voters for the tremendous and historic failure of the Democratic Party to connect even somewhat to the working masses and thus garner support.
In the future, when Capitalism has decayed further, you’ll likely become radicalized and seek to understand this process, and I’ll be right here.
Not letting Democrats run a Nazi candidate was step 1. Liberals failed that.
Should have pushed back like I did so Genocrats would have changed course before it was too late. Instead Blue MAGA condoned it all and silenced dissent.
This is the result of capitulating every demand because “But Trump”.
Ironically “But Trump” is what got you Trump.
Ironically “But Trump” is what got you Trump.
It’s actually got us Trump twice now.
This type of rhetoric is why I and many others just cannot take you folks or your views seriously.
being taken seriously is like the last thing I want. The FBI agent assigned to me might have to actually do something.
Fr when I’m filling in my spreadsheet for the people I have to watch, it’s a lot easier if everyone goes in column A or column B.
Column A is titled ‘Radical speech but thinks that voting will change anything – no action required’.
Column B is ‘Radical shitposter – maintain eyes, no immediate action required’.
The other columns, though – damn it’s a lot of paperwork.
Column O, ‘Organising their community, feeding people, and providing healthcare’ is the worst. Luckily for me, the agency’s action means they don’t stay on the list for long so the paperwork is finite. I probably shouldn’t be saying all this as it’s top secret. But we do know what’s up in our department.
This wasn’t the Democrats being failed
Correct.
it was the whole country being failed
Exactly, by the Democrats.
It wasn’t about voting for the Democrats
Hence why people didn’t vote for Democrats. They had no reason.
and there was only one way to effectively do that.
Do you think it was about voting democrats. You just think they should be able to do literally whatever they want, including genocide.
they’re just posting memes about how everyone didn’t push back against the democrats hard enough
More like they’re posting about how the Democrats should have listened when we were posting the same things before ethe election, but you not only willfully ignored us, you distanced yourself. Now that it over and we were right, you’re mad at the messenger.
thank god trump one and so now the genocide is all over.
No one forced the democrats to do this:
yeah its not like republicans tied ukraine aid to aid for israel or anything. /s
this gets into a completely seperate thing. He could not give them it without congress but the US only very reluctantly restricts commerce. Its a very different thing to say im not going to fund your war and im not going to sell you stuff when dealing with a long time ally. And no you don’t just throw away diplomatic relationships easily. If countries did they would have stopped having dealing with us in trumps first term.
Oh so you’re telling me Biden had no choice. Ithe most powerful man in the world couldn’t do anything but enable Israel and its genocide?
Oh that makes sense and doesn’t fly in the face of reality at all. /s
Bonus for you
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
It would not have been impossible but it would have been problematic. I mean he could send troops with the war powers act. Its possible but not really something he could realistically do.
Problematic to stop genocide? Reflect on what you just said, that’s monstrous.
Maybe we shouldn’t have supported Ukraine if it meant supporting genocide
You seem very picky as to which genocide is ok.
The Russian land grab and physical and cultural genocide of Ukraine.
The Israeli land grab and physical and cultural genocide of Gaza/Palestine.
You can’t be absolutist about one and hand wave the other.
No purity for you.
The US is not currently causing the genocide in Ukraine.
The US has not spent 80 years covering for genocide in Ukraine.
The US has not spent 80 years being the attack dog of another nation commiting genocide in Ukraine.
I’m not in Russia. I was not born in Russia. I do not pay taxes to Russia.
And in a mirror universe where that decision got made someone’s arguing “maybe we shouldn’t have cut funding to Israel if it meant allowing the genocide in Ukraine.”
what gets me is would the hamas attack and thus the isreali response happen without putin. Im very suspicious that he was not pushing on making more chaos globally to get our of the cluster fuck he started.
Thank goodness the Democrats perpetuated the genocide in Gaza so they wouldn’t lose to Trump! 🤦
Yup. I don’t understand why people are talking like Harris isn’t also pro-genocide. Obviously more Americans are going to die under Trump and that’s a tragedy too, but why are people pretending the election was about Palestine?
The election was never about Palestine, ultimately the Dems lost of their own volition by running rightward with Liz Cheney. Rather than going with a safe win like ending support for genocide and running on a progressive platform, or even a Leftist platform (which the DNC would never do, for the record, even if it would win), they deliberately chose to lose to the reps. Their donors would rather have Trump than progressive Dems win.
More Americans would die under Harris as well. The US Empire is crumbling, even if Harris won that wouldn’t stop that process, what’s necessary is for the working class to get organized.
Meanwhile, Palestine burns and the Dems got away with it.
Rather than going with a safe win like ending support for genocide
Irrelevant
Trump ran on “the Dems aren’t doing enough for Israel” and won the Arabic vote
Trump didn’t win the Arab-American vote, Harris lost it. Arab-Americans pivoted towards the Green Party and PSL.
It’s the same thing
How many elections has the messaging been “a vote for Stein is a vote for Republicans”
It is not the same thing, lol. If Arab-Americans wanted Trump to win, they would have voted for Trump.
He didn’t though, Jill stein got like 40 percent, Harris and Trump got 20 each.
Honestly this simplification comes off as disingenuous and attempting to play Arab voters are more conservative and backwards.
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The Democrats share responsibility with the Republicans and Imperialists that have supported Israel’s settler-colonial genocide for nearly a hundred years
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I have been pro-Palestine since far before October 7th, 2023
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Even if I wanted to get Trump elected, I couldn’t. The Democrats lost because they ran an awful campaign and shifted even further right despite polling telling them that at that point swing voters would rather vote for Republicans.
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I advocate for worker organization and revolution, I blame the Dems for spoiling the left as far-right wingers and I blame the Reps as far-right wingers. Even if every single third party voter in every swing state voted for Harris and convinced 2 or 3 others to do the same, Harris still would have lost handily.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
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How am I misleading anyone? What have I said that’s false? You might need to step away from the keyboard for a bit.
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What in the world are you on about now? Can you come back down to the realm of reality, so we can uave an actual conversation? How would I be both a Russian Bot and an all-powerful third party voter that somehow decided this election?
I think the correct thing to do to give yourself agency moving forward is to project blame onto 10 million people staying home.
I think that this will let you further develop yourself and do the things required to meet your goals.
What do you have agency over right now? Are you part of any democratically run political organization right now?
Politics isn’t gonna fix what is being undermined and dissassembled in our Democracy right now. Y’all keep coming up with pompous causes to distract people from REAL action. Fascists are my target from here going onward. I see or hear one and I react, with action. Enough discourse, we fight.
Just so you know you can’t defeat fascism without defeating capitalism. I recommend reading “the economy and class structure of german fascism” and “fascism and social revolution”.
In general individual action doesn’t really help address social problems.
Politics isn’t gonna fix what is being undermined and dissassembled in our Democracy right now.
I dont think electoral politics will work but you have to expand your definition of politics if you think electoral politics is all that politics is.
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Where are we today in the 6 stages of grief? It’s six because acceptance doesn’t exist and at stage 6 the process starts over at stage 1.
f
You dropped that.
Jill Stein would have totally stopped the genocide you care about.
/s
You got your favorite tyrant in control January 21st. Be happy, you wanted this 🤡
The Democrats can only be failed, they can’t fail, can they? If they lose, it’s the fault of the masses, each individually, and not on the Party running the campaign and trying to connect to its base, is that right?
The fact of the matter is that Trump was more successful in getting his base to vote, and Harris went against her base by running to the right of Biden in 2020, despite polling telling her it would lead to electoral loss.
None of us individually made any difference, no matter who we voted, the ones with the ability to change the course of the election are the parties and candidates running for it.
No one cares about genocide. At least not in significant numbers.
You’re right that’s why Democrats need to support Genocide to win the election.
IMO I think the common thread of democrats policies… is they keep thinking if they put one foot in both camps, that they will get both camps.
So, on Gaza… they took the stance of. “let the genocide continue, send the weapons, but also send sternly worded letters”.
Result: The stand with isreal crowd hears “The democrats don’t support isreal”. The stop the genocide people, hear they are still supporting the genocide. Result, everyone hates their stance.
Hence why musks superpac sent 2 ads, one to jewish areas pretending to be the harris campaign saying “I stand with palestine”, and an ad to the muslim populated areas saying “I stand with isreal”.
Same on the border, instead of announcing how BS the “Migrant crime” claims are, or how bad for everyone mass deportation is, she just said “I tried to give you everything on the border, you stopped me”.
Democrats did not put foots in both camps. Their foots were 100% in the israeli Genocide camp. 100% behind Netanyahu. The only reason for those letters was to pretend they did not violate Leahy law. By the end the clown circus called the state department meeting looked exactly like how a liberal describes CCP propaganda.
My point is, they gave enough lip service, half gestures etc… to try and convince the “don’t murder everyone in Gaza” some hope that they could be worked with. IE, they delayed one shipment, Harris didn’t meet with Netanyahu that one time.
Again fully agreed they were ineffective half measures, but that was enough to let the Pro-Isreal lobby go in super deep “OH MY GOD LOOK HOW ANTI-SEMETIC THEY ARE!!! I NEVER”.
The Dems don’t support the genocidal settler-colony Israel because pro-Israel lobbyists hand them cash, but because Israel is an important projection of power as an Imperialist foothold in the region. This hasn’t been about minor AIPAC donations but the massive wealth extraction that comes from securing the dollar as the world reserve currency and benefiting massively from brutal IMF loans.
You’re high as fuck, but you’re insulated in your safe space.
Reality laughs at you and how Insanely inaccurate your perceptions are.
The Democrats are a business that sells policy to Capitalists, those Capitalists would rather the Dems lose than run left. Support for Israel is because it is a foothold for the US Empire and pressures into place the Petro-Dollar. It’s all economic.
