• nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    clearly started it by settling the other one’s territory

    That’s a very simplistic take on the history

    • WanderingVentra@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      It’s not simplistic, it’s factual. It’s more complicated than some people think, but way more simple than Zionists make it look, who try to I jegt artificial nuance to make people look away. And it’s worked up until the internet has made it easier to see the genocide than ever before. I’d recommend looking into the British Mandate of Palestine, how a state was promised to Palestinians than reneged by the West to keep the Middle East in chaos, Herzl and the history of Jewish immigration to Israel (and alternative places they were considering like Africa), and the Nakba. Someone around here has a lot of good links, too. I’d also recommend looking into the US, Canadian, and Australian history to find out what settler colonialism is and see how it applies to Palestine.

      • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        What would you say to the zionist jews that were already living in Palestine? Or to those in neighbouring states of the Ottoman empire that moved within those borders to find a place with less oppression? Did they ‘colonize’ their own country?

        What would you say to someone that survived a pogrom in Russia and migrated the remains of their family to a collectivist farm in an empty piece of desert, merely as survival because they had nowhere else to go?

        There’s a lot of nuance to be found if you are willing to look a little deeper into it

        • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          They weren’t Zionist just because they were Jewish people. They integrated into Palestinian society, they did not ethnically cleanse the Territory like the early Zionists.

          • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            There were jews already living there that wanted their muslim and christian neighbours replaced with jews, and there were jewish immigrants that were happy to build a kibbutz out in the desert and trade with their Arab neighbours.

            What of the jews that were ethnically cleansed out of their Arab and North African countries? Where should they have moved?

              • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                a western colony

                Israel grew out of an existing jewish presence, and the first waves of immigrants came from Russia and Yemen, while under Ottoman control. Whoever told you it’s a ‘western colony’ was lying to you

                where the money was

                Most arrived with nothing and worked long hours in collectivist communes

                The arabs never expelled anybody.

                You can find some nice sourced examples in here

                And again: where do you suggest they should have moved?

              • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                There were a lot of different kibbutz types and many hired Arab workers. Some of the attacked kibbutzes last year even still had Arab workers from Gaza (not since though).

                Here’s an interesting article (paywalled though) on the subject

          • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            Well most of the jews that were living there in the 1880’s will probably be dead by now, so it was mostly a hypothetical question of you travelling back in time and telling someone who was born in Palestine, from parents who were born in Palestine, that they were foreign settlers and had to leave

    • deathtomurica@lemmy.wtf
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      2 months ago

      What you’re gonna claim the jews were from there because the italians deported them 2 millenium ago?

      That is simplistic lmao

      Anyway even after the oslo agrement the palestinian agreed to put down their weapons. Israel still took the west bank. Simple facts.

      • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Did Hamas put down their weapons after Oslo?

        Did Israel pull settlers out of Hebron?