GUIs are an awesome tool. Humans as a species have 5 senses, and instead of limiting computers to the narrow portion of sight needed for typing, they make full use of both our visual and aural senses.
That being said, they add another layer of abstraction away from the hardware on top of the already very abstract userspace utilities that abstract away the kernel that abstracts away the machine code that abstracts away the hardware.
All of which is to say that “Just Works” is shorthand for “I don’t want to actually learn how this complex tool that I’m using works, I just want it to do everything I think it should be able to based on my lack of understanding, and do so in the way that makes sense to my ignorance. And I want it to do all that without learning why we do some steps (and then I’m going to complain about how little sense it all makes).”
That mentality is what allows predatory software companies to not only take advantage of their customers—by hiding shady practices outside of the GUI, and drawing attention to and manufacturing outrage about inconsequential “features” (like ads on the start menu)—but also exist in the first place. Pushing back against that “I shouldn’t have to learn the tool to use it” mentality is one of the ways we keep scam artists and spyware dealers out of Linux spaces.
Have to ask, do you gdb everything you run ?
You think of big sofwares like office or things like that. There are GUI tool who replace the command line better.
I am thinking about the configure display GUI specifically. X config was a pain… We are better of with the GUI and drag and dropping screen to place them.
We got to approach this nuanced though. Yes, a strong stance against all the enshittification (incl. dark patterns and all that) is absolutely necessary to preserve the good things most Linux distros have in common. For example once KDE e.V. and the Gnome Foundation have finished their work at the payment backend for Flatpak repos we absolutely need to bolster Flathub + a handful of others (to avoid centralization) so they become a default, and through that are able to enforce a strong “no bullshit” moderation as companies are trying to “capture the market”. This will be an inevitable shitshow as Linux-based OS’ become more popular.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future. On rare occasions even average users will have to open these things, and it’s way better if they do so through an environment they can understand and navigate. Anything else is just gatekeeping.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI. This fear of enshittification is understandable in our current landscape, but it absolutely doesn’t help if it stifles development towards more user-friendliness. After all nobody argues to take away the CLI in any capacity, just to add another abstraction layer for those who either need or want it. Which, assumably, are most people.
I’m not programmed to balk at that word. I’ve watched some of my favorite subcultures go to shit because of their unwillingness to seem like Evil Exclusionaries™, and I honestly don’t think defending your community from infestation by fascists or consumer mindset or whatever is a terrible stance.
By definition anything that seeks to limit who is welcome is gatekeeping, even if it’s trying to keep the evil-nazi-pedophile-personifications-of-pure-evil-that-you-hate-on-moral-grounds out. I just don’t want thoughtless users who gleefully trade in security and privacy and ownership for simplicity and ease. And I will gleefully gatekeep them all the way to obscurity and irrelevance.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future
I don’t have to admit anything. I’m not one of the devs on any of those projects, and I have no clue what challenges such integration introduces. Adding complexity (such as a making GUI) rarely comes without bugs and security risks, at the very least. Sometimes some projects are a lost cause by their very nature. And then you get people clamoring for the option that is more conducive to GUI than the ones that privilege other criteria, like performance, or security.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI
Okay! They are free to create their own distro if they are unhappy with the current offerings. Or use Mac or Windows if they really just prefer the handholding. You get what you pay for.
We got to approach this nuanced though.
Nuance is for people who think more than the average end user; they can have GUIs. The rest should live and die by the CLI.
Holy shit, your reply is so phenomenally unhinged and disrespectful to other people in so many aspects it’s honestly impressive. Hope you get well soon.
Thanks! I’m not ill though, just fed up with “be extra nice to my ignorance and I might consider not making your forum/hobby/government shittier” mentality that’s worked so stellarly at curning enshittification so far.
Hope your bruised ego gets better tho! No need to shallowly disguise it as being a champion of the people, expertly defending them from someone who might push back on their self-centered worldview.
GUIs are an awesome tool. Humans as a species have 5 senses, and instead of limiting computers to the narrow portion of sight needed for typing, they make full use of both our visual and aural senses.
That being said, they add another layer of abstraction away from the hardware on top of the already very abstract userspace utilities that abstract away the kernel that abstracts away the machine code that abstracts away the hardware.
All of which is to say that “Just Works” is shorthand for “I don’t want to actually learn how this complex tool that I’m using works, I just want it to do everything I think it should be able to based on my lack of understanding, and do so in the way that makes sense to my ignorance. And I want it to do all that without learning why we do some steps (and then I’m going to complain about how little sense it all makes).”
That mentality is what allows predatory software companies to not only take advantage of their customers—by hiding shady practices outside of the GUI, and drawing attention to and manufacturing outrage about inconsequential “features” (like ads on the start menu)—but also exist in the first place. Pushing back against that “I shouldn’t have to learn the tool to use it” mentality is one of the ways we keep scam artists and spyware dealers out of Linux spaces.
Have to ask, do you gdb everything you run ? You think of big sofwares like office or things like that. There are GUI tool who replace the command line better. I am thinking about the configure display GUI specifically. X config was a pain… We are better of with the GUI and drag and dropping screen to place them.
We got to approach this nuanced though. Yes, a strong stance against all the enshittification (incl. dark patterns and all that) is absolutely necessary to preserve the good things most Linux distros have in common. For example once KDE e.V. and the Gnome Foundation have finished their work at the payment backend for Flatpak repos we absolutely need to bolster Flathub + a handful of others (to avoid centralization) so they become a default, and through that are able to enforce a strong “no bullshit” moderation as companies are trying to “capture the market”. This will be an inevitable shitshow as Linux-based OS’ become more popular.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future. On rare occasions even average users will have to open these things, and it’s way better if they do so through an environment they can understand and navigate. Anything else is just gatekeeping.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI. This fear of enshittification is understandable in our current landscape, but it absolutely doesn’t help if it stifles development towards more user-friendliness. After all nobody argues to take away the CLI in any capacity, just to add another abstraction layer for those who either need or want it. Which, assumably, are most people.
I’m not programmed to balk at that word. I’ve watched some of my favorite subcultures go to shit because of their unwillingness to seem like Evil Exclusionaries™, and I honestly don’t think defending your community from infestation by fascists or consumer mindset or whatever is a terrible stance.
By definition anything that seeks to limit who is welcome is gatekeeping, even if it’s trying to keep the evil-nazi-pedophile-personifications-of-pure-evil-that-you-hate-on-moral-grounds out. I just don’t want thoughtless users who gleefully trade in security and privacy and ownership for simplicity and ease. And I will gleefully gatekeep them all the way to obscurity and irrelevance.
I don’t have to admit anything. I’m not one of the devs on any of those projects, and I have no clue what challenges such integration introduces. Adding complexity (such as a making GUI) rarely comes without bugs and security risks, at the very least. Sometimes some projects are a lost cause by their very nature. And then you get people clamoring for the option that is more conducive to GUI than the ones that privilege other criteria, like performance, or security.
Okay! They are free to create their own distro if they are unhappy with the current offerings. Or use Mac or Windows if they really just prefer the handholding. You get what you pay for.
Nuance is for people who think more than the average end user; they can have GUIs. The rest should live and die by the CLI.
Holy shit, your reply is so phenomenally unhinged and disrespectful to other people in so many aspects it’s honestly impressive. Hope you get well soon.
Thanks! I’m not ill though, just fed up with “be extra nice to my ignorance and I might consider not making your forum/hobby/government shittier” mentality that’s worked so stellarly at curning enshittification so far.
Hope your bruised ego gets better tho! No need to shallowly disguise it as being a champion of the people, expertly defending them from someone who might push back on their self-centered worldview.