Yes, there are loads of men who don’t deserve the name, that put women down, who can only be happy on the back of women. Fuck them
Having said that, I very much remember that video of guys going to a support group for men that committed uicide with feminists waiting for them outside to yell things like “it’s good that he killed himself!”. Fuck those assholes too.
Can we maybe ALL be nice to EVERYONE?
I’m sorry, but this comic doesn’t help. The reality is that both men and women face the same nonsense when they bring up what they have to contend with so how about we don’t try to disparage either side? Listen to both sides? You know, the thing we should be always doing?
I don’t think it necessarily has to? Like, I agree with pretty much everything in your comment, aside from this part and what it implies. I read this comment as an expression of frustration from the artist, and it’s certainly one that I can relate to. I also realise that there’s a heckton of men who’ll relate too, because of how men who want to carve out space to talk about men’s issues can be cut off, even if they’re not the same men as the assholes who only want to talk about men’s issues when they’re speaking over a woman. However, I think that saying “both sides” to this misses the point of the comic
It can be useful to ground statements in our own personal perspectives because of how it limits the scope of what we’re saying. A smaller, messier example is that I am autistic and have done both disability activism and autism activism in the past. I am autistic and because of that, I am also disabled, and so many of my experiences as an autistic person can also apply more generally to disabled people. However, generalising a statement can be difficult, especially if on a difficult topic, such as institutional ableism. I was able to speak confidently on how that affected me personally, and to a more limited degree, how it affects other autistic people, because of who I am in community with. However, I don’t directly know any deaf people, for example, and thus I am cautious when talking about my experiences as a disabled person, lest I over-generalise. I get a similar sense from the comic’s use of “as a woman”. Grounding stuff in that way is often an attempt to limit the scope of the discussion to something more manageable when grappling with something hard to articulate.
I also do think it’s useful to recognise the difference in experience. As a silly example, I might say “as a woman, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as a human, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as an animal, I need to breathe air in order to survive”, but actually, I’d need to go and double check the facts on that last one. That’s sort of my point — sometimes statements are overly specific and should be simplified, like in the “as a [woman/human]” statements. However, limiting the scope (like in the “as a human” statement compared to the “as an animal” one) actually gives space for the possibility that some weird animals don’t need to breathe.
Apologies if I have explained this poorly. I don’t mean to come off as lecturing or argumentative; I am replying to your comment because I appreciate your points and I am open to discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and my apologies for responding so late. I don’t have much time available to go over my responses.
I get your point but this comic basically implies that any time that a guy says he has a real problem, he is somehow hurting women. This makes it that guys should not complain at all, about anything?
This reminds me of this video from a few years back where men were gathering in some university building to talk about suicide within men. These were men, people, who lost either their fathers, brothers, or sons to suicide.
Cue a group of extremist feminists to have an impromptu protest at the door entrance, shouting at these guys “it’s great that he’s dead, one less evil men”, that sort of blood boiling shit. I think that comics like this at the very least excuse this behavior and at worst encourage it
this comic basically implies that any time that a guy says he has a real problem in response to a women voicing her own experience, he is somehow hurting women
key, KEY, difference, that everyone who appreciates the comic positively will understand. i could see how that might be unclear to someone who doesn’t frequently see these kinds of conversations in life, but that’s what’s truly the intended meaning here.
when a guy says he has a real problem in pretty much literally any other context, i and the author of the comic have no issue; that is good and healthy. if that first panel didn’t exist, removing the context for her being spoken over in later panels, it would be a highly inappropriate comic and i would be 100% with you in coming down with judgement :)
Yeah, but no
There are assholes on both sides, like it or not.
Yes, there are loads of men who don’t deserve the name, that put women down, who can only be happy on the back of women. Fuck them
Having said that, I very much remember that video of guys going to a support group for men that committed uicide with feminists waiting for them outside to yell things like “it’s good that he killed himself!”. Fuck those assholes too.
Can we maybe ALL be nice to EVERYONE?
I’m sorry, but this comic doesn’t help. The reality is that both men and women face the same nonsense when they bring up what they have to contend with so how about we don’t try to disparage either side? Listen to both sides? You know, the thing we should be always doing?
I don’t think it necessarily has to? Like, I agree with pretty much everything in your comment, aside from this part and what it implies. I read this comment as an expression of frustration from the artist, and it’s certainly one that I can relate to. I also realise that there’s a heckton of men who’ll relate too, because of how men who want to carve out space to talk about men’s issues can be cut off, even if they’re not the same men as the assholes who only want to talk about men’s issues when they’re speaking over a woman. However, I think that saying “both sides” to this misses the point of the comic
It can be useful to ground statements in our own personal perspectives because of how it limits the scope of what we’re saying. A smaller, messier example is that I am autistic and have done both disability activism and autism activism in the past. I am autistic and because of that, I am also disabled, and so many of my experiences as an autistic person can also apply more generally to disabled people. However, generalising a statement can be difficult, especially if on a difficult topic, such as institutional ableism. I was able to speak confidently on how that affected me personally, and to a more limited degree, how it affects other autistic people, because of who I am in community with. However, I don’t directly know any deaf people, for example, and thus I am cautious when talking about my experiences as a disabled person, lest I over-generalise. I get a similar sense from the comic’s use of “as a woman”. Grounding stuff in that way is often an attempt to limit the scope of the discussion to something more manageable when grappling with something hard to articulate.
I also do think it’s useful to recognise the difference in experience. As a silly example, I might say “as a woman, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as a human, I need to breathe air in order to survive”. I could also say “as an animal, I need to breathe air in order to survive”, but actually, I’d need to go and double check the facts on that last one. That’s sort of my point — sometimes statements are overly specific and should be simplified, like in the “as a [woman/human]” statements. However, limiting the scope (like in the “as a human” statement compared to the “as an animal” one) actually gives space for the possibility that some weird animals don’t need to breathe.
Apologies if I have explained this poorly. I don’t mean to come off as lecturing or argumentative; I am replying to your comment because I appreciate your points and I am open to discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and my apologies for responding so late. I don’t have much time available to go over my responses.
I get your point but this comic basically implies that any time that a guy says he has a real problem, he is somehow hurting women. This makes it that guys should not complain at all, about anything?
This reminds me of this video from a few years back where men were gathering in some university building to talk about suicide within men. These were men, people, who lost either their fathers, brothers, or sons to suicide.
Cue a group of extremist feminists to have an impromptu protest at the door entrance, shouting at these guys “it’s great that he’s dead, one less evil men”, that sort of blood boiling shit. I think that comics like this at the very least excuse this behavior and at worst encourage it
key, KEY, difference, that everyone who appreciates the comic positively will understand. i could see how that might be unclear to someone who doesn’t frequently see these kinds of conversations in life, but that’s what’s truly the intended meaning here.
when a guy says he has a real problem in pretty much literally any other context, i and the author of the comic have no issue; that is good and healthy. if that first panel didn’t exist, removing the context for her being spoken over in later panels, it would be a highly inappropriate comic and i would be 100% with you in coming down with judgement :)