I’m not religious and have plenty of issues with organized religion in general but I do support any Christians who aspire to live by the teachings Jesus actually preached. And it’s always good to see someone like this Reverend here, willing to call out conservatives who wear their supposed piety on their sleeves while espousing bigoted, selfish, reprehensible beliefs.
It’s so God damned rare these days. Literally the only positive religious group experience I have had my my adult life was the day after the first George Floyd riots, I spent 8 hours on emergency overtime at my dispatch center. The next day I was out in the area and a local mosque decided to go around cleaning up broken glass and boarding up looted stores because “our brothers and sisters are hurting”. I wish more people acted that way.
the teachings Jesus actually preached
Except that we really don’t know what those would have been, and there’s a pretty decent likelihood that many of the most popular sayings like “blessed are the poor” and “easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle then a rich man to get into heaven” were additions after Paul and what later becomes the canonical church shift their splinter of the tradition to start collecting money from people.
“Want salvation? Too bad you have all that money - maybe we can help you out with that.”
For example, in apocrypha that has a decent chance of also dating to the first century, it depicts a Jesus ridiculing the very idea of prayer, fasting, and charity as necessary for salvation, instead characterizing it as a birthright for all people and those who give money to the church as being like people who take off even their clothes to give to someone else in order to be given what is already theirs.
This is arguably an even more transgressive tradition and version of Jesus than the one Paul offered up, and was more in keeping with the pre-Pauline attitudes about “everything is permissible for me” and the resistance to his rights to profit as an apostle discussed in 1 Corinthians.
There’s a significant survivorship bias in modern Christianity - for example, a tradition that changed the prohibition on carrying a purse and collecting money from people when ministering (Luke 22:35-36 - absent in Marcion’s version which was likely the earliest copy) was more likely to survive and thrive than ones that had limited fundraising capabilities as originally directed.
So while yes, he may have been all about helping the poor and downtrodden, it’s also entirely possible that a lot of it is a load of BS meant to separate fools from their money by an organization claiming to do those things on people’s behalf (you’ll notice in the Epistles vs gospels that Paul, who is supposedly collecting money for the poor back in Jerusalem, mentions a gift of a nice aromatic in Philippians 4:18, and then in the gospels written later on there’s a scene where Jesus is given an expensive aromatic and chastises those who criticize him for accepting it rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor).
Personally, I prefer the nuance in something like saying 95 attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas: “If you have money, don’t lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won’t get it back.” There’s a bit more nuance in that this addresses not an obligation for everyone including those struggling with money to give to the poor via the church but rather the inherent wisdom of recognizing the diminishing returns on personal wealth for the rich and the value in directly enriching one’s environment rather than hoarding a resource you can’t take with you (the point of the parable in saying 63 in the same work).
So while I’m inclined to think that a historical Jesus probably was against hoarding wealth stupidly given the overlap between unique extra-cannonical and canonical sentiments, I’m quite wary that the extreme degree of bleeding heart asceticism we see promoted canonically is much more than a sales effort by a parasitic organization that went on to build the Vatican off its back.
Yeah I went through a phase of reading biblical history when I had my faith deconstructed, and you quickly realize how many different Christianities there were. As well as the political context for why these sort of ideas were able to spread in this specific part of the world at that time in history. I think the version of the story told in Jesus Christ Superstar actually does a decent job with the structures of authority and their conflicting interests. To me Jesus was likely a very charismatic “nobody” who gained a following by expressing sentiments that were kind of already floating around, until it caused a problem for the authorities who needed to keep the peace or risk Rome intervening. Whether Jesus actually said what’s in the Bible isn’t important, we know people thought he said that stuff and that it resonated strongly with many. We can infer things about people at the time based on what they ascribed to Jesus.
Whether Jesus actually said what’s in the Bible isn’t important, we know people thought he said that stuff and that it resonated strongly with many. We can infer things about people at the time based on what they ascribed to Jesus.
Eh, the above mentioned sect of Christianity claimed he was talking about indivisible properties of matter and naturalism as a greater wonder over intelligent design, with the sower parable (the only one with a 'secret ’ explanation in the first canonical gospel) as actually being about the naturalist origins of all life and the universe while inadvertently using the language of Lucretius’s “seeds of things” from 80 years earlier to do so (who even described failed biological reproduction as “seed falling by the wayside of a path”).
I think we too readily cede the authority over what a historical Jesus might have been trying to say to the revisionist version that snowballed into a beast torturing and executing people for even possessing competing versions of Christianity and directly accepting money in exchange for promises of salvation and propping up tyrants over the masses.
For example, here’s another saying from the above tradition:
Jesus said, “Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce .”
Weird that the council of Nicaea at the prompting of an empire largely governed by those who were born into power and held it until death didn’t decide to canonize that tradition, no? But could you imagine the Roman empire maybe motivated to be executing a guy that was saying it?
Also weird that Paul seems vaguely familiar with this connection between gaining wealth and ruling in 1 Corinthians 4:8 as pre-existing his first letter to Corinth where he later accused them of accepting a different gospel from superapostles and where they later depose the presbyters appointed by Rome:
Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!
My favorite interpretation of the Bible is basically it’s a collection of stories from medieval times. It was rough back then I mean if you fell in the mud, your life was over. You’re trapped and no one is helping you, your kindling won’t be warming your family tonight.
And then this dude comes along and a hand comes in view. You flinch at first, I mean why not kick a dog while he’s down? But no, the hand grabs your arm and pulls you out of the mud. Nobody saves your life! This man is, this good man is a saint! His story is written.
A few decades later another man collapsed in the sun and another nice guy gave him some water. His story is written.
Another few decades later a different guy is low a few cattle and sheep and his neighbor, maybe someone who was moving to Egypt, just fuckin’ gives you his whole flock. His story is yadda yadda yadda.
Jesus is just a collection of society’s niceties. Why else do you think these people were living for 900 years!? “Sonny boy your great great great great great great great grandfather from 50 years ago only survived because Jesus pulled him from the mud!”
In short - the stories of Jesus’ deeds was never just one person. I mean, literally the guy whose skeleton they have sure, but in terms of the Bible these stories existed long before Jesus came along, then more stories got added after him too, many attributed to him retroactively.
That sure sounds like something somebody who’s never seen a bible and who doesn’t have a basic knowledge of any time before 50 AD might believe.
I studied the Bible pretty extensively in college, but thanks. How dare people try and have fun ideas.
The only pastor from my parents church who had any interest in helping the community ended up getting ousted over a differing interpretation of some Bible verse or other. I had stopped going for almost a decade by then so who knows.
Now they’re more interested in remodeling and expanding the church building to make it more gaudy.
You know, like Jesus said when he helped the merchants at the temple maximize their earnings potential, “rule of acquisition #10, bitches!”
Relevant link. https://youtu.be/ANNX_XiuA78?si=2eZJ1t5Gn5bmj52K
To be honest, this is something that really bugs me; people using the Bible for their own benefit. They say, “we love Jesus!” and then go and keep doing exactly what they were doing before. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep ny commandments” (John 14:158), and James said, “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” (James 2:26, but there’s more in James 2:14-26). Yes, they might say that there’s too many commandments-- but Jesus also said “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”. That is a summary of every single law/commandment in the entire Bible, all of the others are just more specific instructions on how to do that. All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it’s not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It’s talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them. The third commandment, “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.” (Exodus 20:7) isn’t just talking about saying “ooh mah gawd” when you stub your toe, it’s talking about using God’s inapropriately or disrespectfully in any way, including for personal gain.
All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it’s not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It’s talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them.
Doesn’t it? I think when Jesus said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
I think when Jesus said “love your enemies […] Be perfect” Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
I think when Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I’m not an ethical enough person to do them. I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bullshit, and that it’s better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
I think when Jesus said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
This one takes a bit of cultural context, I have a book at home that has a good section on this but I’m traveling now so I’ll type this part when I get home. But the gist of it is that don’t just ‘put up’ with it, but be kind to them. Fight violence and oppresion with kindness. draw attention to them. Force them to treat you (even if just to fight you) as an equal. Like it says in Proverbs 25:21-22, “If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.”
I think when Jesus said “love your enemies […] Be perfect” Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
yep, that’s what He meant: “Love your enemies, pray for those who curse you”. I think this ties in a bit with the cheek turning.
I think when Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor” Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
This is what He said just before the bit about the camel going through the needle eye. A man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man said that He’d done that all his life. Then Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”. The man then walked away sadly because he had a lot of stuff and Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn’t actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
yeah He meant that it would be easier for a camel (like the animal, camelus, this one) to ge through the eye of a needle (like the hole in the end of the sewing tool, the bit in the top right corner of the main picture of this article). Also lol for Supply Side Jesus.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I’m not an ethical enough person to do them.
Same here, but with God’s help I come to Him, He pulls me closer, and I become more like Him. And when I fall (or jump) He comes and gets me and picks me up again.
I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bull****, and that it’s better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
I’ll have to disagree with you here, I firmly believe that Jesus is God come to earth as a human.
(sorry it took me ages to reply, I’ve been busy and I wanted to sit down and think about this reply)
Which English translation do you prefer and recommend? I like NET because of it’s less-rights reserved copyright, but for ease of understanding I prefer translations that use contemporary language instead of just footnotes.
be kind to them. Fight violence and oppresion with kindness. draw attention to them.
I think this characterization of turning the other cheek is more complete and supported by the nearby text, even for someone like me who prefers Jefferson’s eliding.
Re: “do not resist”, are there other nearby passages that expand it to more than just refraining from violence, into actually resisting evil persons? I ethically agree with your expanded position of trying to overcome injustice in this world - but doesn’t the quotes of Jesus in the canonical books rely instead on waiting for justice in heaven and hell, and not on Earth?
You’re not allowed to give people any sort of bribes when voting for good reason. Its a form of rigging elections.
